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If somebody is
interested in tableless Drake-Output: The frontpage is
already finished, the rest (labels for 508) comes in a newer
version: My Drake-CMS Demo in Germany valid xhtml
transitional, few changes and its strict Please
visit in firefox, the template needs a workaround, i got only one
or two hours Sorry for the advertisement, its a free
hoster
greetings Marc
legolas558
Re : Tableless output (moved)
09 June 2007 01:03
Anonymous
Our CSS is going to change radically in the next v0.4.4, I hope
this will not cause too many troubles to your templates...
Anyway it won't be difficult to update them, and the CSS
of v0.4.4 will be almost definitive till v1.0 (it will be
simpler, too).
We are really interested in table-less
output, specifically those of components (modules, drabots).
Now two questions:
would you be
interested in working on the core Drake CMS components (and
modules/drabots later, if you wish) with the purpose of removing
unnecessary tables? We would of course assist you with the
informations (already published on the Developer manual) needed
for the new CSS restructuration (which I am doing with
R.Savarese); we usually talk about this on the
drakecms-developers mailing list or via IM
are you
interested in mantaining the templates that you would like to
publicly release on the Drake CMS project SVN? We could also
arrange a release for them
About XHTML 1.1 Strict:
we are also interested in that! See the most recent message which
I have recently posted about WCAG on the drakecms-developers
mailing list (currently 500 server error from SF.net ).
If
you are going to collaborate, you will be listed as a project
member and (at your option, if you can/want use SVN) given SVN
write access so that you can directly apply the fixes for
standards compliance to the Drake CMS core.
siedlerchr
Re: Tableless output (moved)
09 June 2007 01:53
Anonymous
Your template looks good... the pages load faster and I like it,
it is very easy...
I will wait vor the new css codes
and then I will do my own template...
marc
Re : Tableless output
09 June 2007 06:59
Anonymous
Edit:
the link above is down, it was only a demo. Shortly my own page starts, there you can pursue the changes in
the in each case current version.
Greetings Marc
legolas558
Re : Tableless output
09 June 2007 16:46
Anonymous
Actually there is not such PM feature (yet ).
Don't worry about the dictionary, as far as we understood each
other that's ok.
Welcome aboard Marc!
(to
other readers: I have contacted Marc and he's going to be an
official Drake CMS project member)
phpmaster
Re : Tableless output
10 June 2007 11:35
Anonymous
1. Using HTML tables 2. Table-less design = css
boxes 3. Use both, for maximum options
I also
'got afraid' I could not use <table> anymore. So I
have learnt howto use CSS Boxes, the basic use. But now I
read from Experienced & good CSS teachers
it is not always bad / wrong to use tables ... not even in XHTML. XHTML Standard accepts the
use of normal tables! ... but you put most attributes in
your CSS Style
And I have found, at this
stage of CSS version there are times when you have to limit
yourself in coding layout or make 'crazy fixes' to get it
together 100% when using Only CSS Boxes.
Read for example this nice article Quote:
This should really be
a defence against slander and libel. People tell lies about
layout tables, and here is a response to the most important of
those lies. It takes the form of a defence against a criminal
charge because that is how too many people see it.
This is not the only article like that, you may find, if
you www.google.com a little bit. There are 'fundamentalists'
in everything. Not only in Religion and foreign Affairs
Politics. Like making war will solve terror. But to be
fundmentalist, is not to be Open. It will restrict your self
and put onto you SOME LIMITATIONS. ... you are not free to
use a better method, alternative, in case of need.
Rigidity is opposite of
Flexibilty
Bottomline: - CSS is
great and <div boxes are super> !!! - In some few
cases, we run into trouble, and the easy thing is to use
<table> Perfect! - It is not the case of 'either or'.
It is for me the actual situation, that will decide when I
use CSS Box or TABLE
Regards, phpmaster
legolas558
Re: Re : Tableless output
10 June 2007 16:41
Anonymous
Great post phpmaster, thanks. I have read those
pages (I also read something similar in the past, and from both
the points of view).
I would also to restate my
compliments to Marc for having experimented
table-less output with Drake CMS, but as written in our CSS conventions we
reserve the right to use tables when other CSS techniques are not
satisfactory.
The current development is progressing
in the following way:
restructuration of
CSS, that will have a much more easy to understand model that
will exploit CSS inheritance
review of all
components, modules and any other output generator in order to
reduce tables in favor of <div>s (this might be tricky to
accomplish if (1) is not yet finished)
we do not
plan to edit the official templates (their index.php
files) to totally remove the tables, but since now
Marc has joined and he will probably develop new
official templates we might also see one or more table-less
templates (in separate releases or even into the official
distribution, if they have the same flexibility as the normal
templates). This, combined with (2), might lead Drake CMS to an
almost full table-less output but even if
we encourage the usage of alternatives to tables, we are aware of
the fact that CSS has still room for improvements and we will not
deprecate tables.
as already explained, there are
places where not using a table (think about the event calendar
module) would not be feasible
we also want to
reduce tables in order to improve readability (both human and for
parsers) of the XHTML source: an output which uses <div>s
is much easier to mantain than one which uses
<table>s
as documented by our features
tracker, we tried to achieve table-less output but realized what
has been written above and in our documentation: technology not
yet mature enough
NOTE: these
positions do not mean that the discussion ends here, but
instead offer a hook to the current status of the discussion: we
are always open to new designers and new ideas, if somebody tells
us that we are wrong about something and proposes a better idea
(and we hope that he will also join and help in order to develop
his new idea ) we will of course change our mind, we are not
(yet) stubborn project leaders
phpmaster
Re : Re: Re : Tableless output
10 June 2007 14:19
Anonymous
thanks, legolas
I try to share my experiences and
stuff I know as good I can it might help some people
In this case, by your last post, looks like we
think the same. this does not say, that that other ways
of thinking/doing are 'bad' or so
in time, we may
get improved CSS versions
.. one key thing, is
if most major browsers like IE, Mozilla, Opera, will
accept to code according W3C CSS standard
right now,
things are not optimal (especially Bill Gates Microsoft IE7 is a
Sinner. ) This certainly gives us webpage coders some problems.
Personally I usually test all PHP HTML
XHTML I offer for Public, using:
- 1. Firefox
latest - 2. Opera latest - 3. Internet Explorer 7 - 4. Netscape Bowser 8.0.4, based on Firefox
When my
CSS/HTML page/pages looks same, in all these major Browser
( maybe 98% of all Users/visitors ) ... Then I can relax
A lot of work YES! I can tell YOU, you have to
experiment and Be Smart. coding/recoding change
coding/recoding again
And I have this Firm
Policy: NOT USE Any 'fixes' !!!! no fixes in java,
not in HTML and no FIXES in CSS.[/b]
When we
start using 'fixes', we will fix this thing For Them And they can
go on breaking agreed, recommended CSS standard in
Internet Explorer 8 etc. ... such standard 'crimes' Against
Humanity, should not be encouraged
Regards, phpmaster
legolas558
Re: Re : Re: Re : Tableless output
10 June 2007 15:16
Anonymous
Yes phpmaster, I think we share the same position.
Unfortunately I cannot personally test on all those browsers (I
am mostly a core coder, so I rely on other testers).
I
am also against 'fixes' or 'hacks' of any type, but unfortunately
today's javascript is a mess, mostly due to IE5/IE6
implementations (I don't know how much standard compliant is
IE7's, but surely better than its predecessors); so until all
browsers will consistently implement ECMAscript we will have to
use 'hacks' to differentiate between IE and other browsers. This
is true not only for Drake CMS but for almost any other web
application which uses javascript The subset of
commonly supported/consistent functions is too much small to do
anything useful with javascript, so nowadays javascript code is
full of IE-specific checks However, we
always try to minimize the usage of such hacks and priviledge
functionality for standards-compliant browsers; respecting the
standards is a matter of opening the market, while not respecting
it is a matter of exploiting a monopoly.
If it were
for me, I would code without any hack at all (and this is the
guideline for Drake CMS anyway) but since Drake CMS currently
covers Firefox, Opera, Avant, MSIE6 and MSIE7, we have to be very
careful. The worst standard-compliant browser is MSIE6, as far as
I have seen.
Anyway, there is no browser-specific
feature of Drake CMS; we use the 'hacks' to fill the holes of the
non-standard-compliant browser, where necessary, and always
prefer alternative standard-compliant solutions.
If
future versions of IE will introduce new issues, we might also
consider dropping the support for it (it is not
a choice that I can do alone, and you probably have understood my
position, but the whole Drake CMS Team would be enquiried).
Tableless output (moved) 
).
).
)
When my
CSS/HTML page/pages looks same,